Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    Before the off season started we all pretty much knew Choo had more power, a much better OBP and probably more durability than Ells as a long term signing.  Even so, I don't think anyone believed Ells or Choo were worth this kind of money. 

    The market is beginning to close on Boras's 22mil request for Choo which I think once again proves how the Yankee spending has impacted the game.  I'm very interested to see what team hands Choo a contract but either way still feel his career will out live Ells's and feel he would have been signed by now if not for the huge Ells move.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxDOrtiz. Show RedSoxDOrtiz's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    He would have been signed by now if it were not for Ells because he was the fall back plan for the Yankees if they didn't sign Ells.  The problem is that the other big spending teams, Dodger and Red Sox are all set with outfields right now.  That leaves the Mariners and the recent spending spree as the most likely location where he lands IMO.

    Ells is a better overall player than Choo and we can't just candy pick his bat.  If batting were everything then Nava would be a better player than Ells... but we all know that's not the case.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

     

    He would have been signed by now if it were not for Ells because he was the fall back plan for the Yankees if they didn't sign Ells.  The problem is that the other big spending teams, Dodger and Red Sox are all set with outfields right now.  That leaves the Mariners and the recent spending spree as the most likely location where he lands IMO.

    Ells is a better overall player than Choo and we can't just candy pick his bat.  If batting were everything then Nava would be a better player than Ells... but we all know that's not the case.

     



    Overall talent goes to Choo sorry.  From a 40 point higher OBP as a leadoff batter to his power, durability and consistency he is hands down better than Ells's in my opinion.  If we had a more durable .389 OBP, 20HR, 20SB guy replacing Ells our team wouldn't even miss Ells.  Instead we have an unproven rookie who will probably struggle quite a bit, not to mention not being a leadoff hitter just yet.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxDOrtiz. Show RedSoxDOrtiz's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

     

    He would have been signed by now if it were not for Ells because he was the fall back plan for the Yankees if they didn't sign Ells.  The problem is that the other big spending teams, Dodger and Red Sox are all set with outfields right now.  That leaves the Mariners and the recent spending spree as the most likely location where he lands IMO.

    Ells is a better overall player than Choo and we can't just candy pick his bat.  If batting were everything then Nava would be a better player than Ells... but we all know that's not the case.

     

     



    Overall talent goes to Choo sorry.  From a 40point higher OBP as a leadoff batter to his power, durability and consistency he is hands down better than Ells's in my opinion.  If we had a .389 OBP, 20HR, 20SB guy replacing Ells our team wouldn't even miss Ells.  Instead we have an unproven rookie who will probably struggle quite a bit, not to mention not being a leadoff hitter just yet.

     

     




    Choo might be a better hitter, but he is terrible defensively... he is a butcher in center.  He has posted negative dWAR (defensive wins over replacement) for every year of his career since his first full season.  He had a -1.8 last year and a -1.9 the year before.  Ellsbury had a 1.9 last year and 0.5 the year before.  There is a reason why Choo has never even made an all star team with the hitting that he has. 

    Choo was a 4.2 WAR player last year

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/choosh01.shtml

    Ells was a 5.8 WAR player last year

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/ellsbja01.shtml

    Ells is the more complete player and adds more value to a team and is the better player.  Choo is a better hitter... but the better overall player is Ells because of his defense and huge advantage in speed.  It should be noted however that Choo is terrible vs. lefties and Ells is a more balanced hitter even though Choo is the more productive with the bat.

    Ells is projected to be a 3.8 WAR player next year

    Choo is projected to be a 3.2 WAR player next year via fangraphs

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

     

    Scott Boras will find a way to get Choo at least a 5-year, $90 million contract.  

    I think Choo will get a contract no where near Ellsbury's.  

     

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from fl+adam,. Show fl+adam,'s posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

    [QUOTE]

    We will agree to disagree.  When he gets desperate I would love for the sox to "steal" him for 5 and 80 or even 6 and 100.  At least he stays on the field and gets on base.  Great things for a leadoff hitter to do.

     

    He would have been signed by now if it were not for Ells because he was the fall back plan for the Yankees if they didn't sign Ells.  The problem is that the other big spending teams, Dodger and Red Sox are all set with outfields right now.  That leaves the Mariners and the recent spending spree as the most likely location where he lands IMO.

    Ells is a better overall player than Choo and we can't just candy pick his bat.  If batting were everything then Nava would be a better player than Ells... but we all know that's not the case.

     

     



    Overall talent goes to Choo sorry.  From a 40point higher OBP as a leadoff batter to his power, durability and consistency he is hands down better than Ells's in my opinion.  If we had a .389 OBP, 20HR, 20SB guy replacing Ells our team wouldn't even miss Ells.  Instead we have an unproven rookie who will probably struggle quite a bit, not to mention not being a leadoff hitter just yet.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Choo might be a better hitter, but he is terrible defensively... he is a butcher in center.  He has posted negative dWAR (defensive wins over replacement) for every year of his career since his first full season.  He had a -1.8 last year and a -1.9 the year before.  Ellsbury had a 1.9 last year and 0.5 the year before.  There is a reason why Choo has never even made an all star team with the hitting that he has. 

    Choo was a 4.2 WAR player last year

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/choosh01.shtml

    Ells was a 5.8 WAR player last year

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/ellsbja01.shtml

    Ells is the more complete player and adds more value to a team and is the better player.  Choo is a better hitter... but the better overall player is Ells because of his defense and huge advantage in speed.  It should be noted however that Choo is terrible vs. lefties and Ells is a more balanced hitter even though Choo is the more productive with the bat.

    Ells is projected to be a 3.8 WAR player next year

    Choo is projected to be a 3.2 WAR player next year via fangraphs

    [/QUOTE]


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    I am sure Boras thought the Ellsbury contract would help Choo get more because he can say look what Ellsbury just got!  He wanted between Werth and Ellsbury, Crawford kind of deal.  No one wants to give Choo $100 million.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to fl+adam,'s comment:

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

    [QUOTE]

    We will agree to disagree.  When he gets desperate I would love for the sox to "steal" him for 5 and 80 or even 6 and 100.  At least he stays on the field and gets on base.  Great things for a leadoff hitter to do.

     

    He would have been signed by now if it were not for Ells because he was the fall back plan for the Yankees if they didn't sign Ells.  The problem is that the other big spending teams, Dodger and Red Sox are all set with outfields right now.  That leaves the Mariners and the recent spending spree as the most likely location where he lands IMO.

    Ells is a better overall player than Choo and we can't just candy pick his bat.  If batting were everything then Nava would be a better player than Ells... but we all know that's not the case.

     

     



    Overall talent goes to Choo sorry.  From a 40point higher OBP as a leadoff batter to his power, durability and consistency he is hands down better than Ells's in my opinion.  If we had a .389 OBP, 20HR, 20SB guy replacing Ells our team wouldn't even miss Ells.  Instead we have an unproven rookie who will probably struggle quite a bit, not to mention not being a leadoff hitter just yet.

     

     

     




     

    Choo might be a better hitter, but he is terrible defensively... he is a butcher in center.  He has posted negative dWAR (defensive wins over replacement) for every year of his career since his first full season.  He had a -1.8 last year and a -1.9 the year before.  Ellsbury had a 1.9 last year and 0.5 the year before.  There is a reason why Choo has never even made an all star team with the hitting that he has. 

    Choo was a 4.2 WAR player last year

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/choosh01.shtml

    Ells was a 5.8 WAR player last year

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/ellsbja01.shtml

    Ells is the more complete player and adds more value to a team and is the better player.  Choo is a better hitter... but the better overall player is Ells because of his defense and huge advantage in speed.  It should be noted however that Choo is terrible vs. lefties and Ells is a more balanced hitter even though Choo is the more productive with the bat.

    Ells is projected to be a 3.8 WAR player next year

    Choo is projected to be a 3.2 WAR player next year via fangraphs

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    The difference in defense and speed isn't even worth talking about.  Ells doesn't have much natural talent without his speed period.  Choo is an adequate OF and the consistent offensive numbers he puts up, not to mention incredible OBP at the leadoff position with a combination of power and some speed will help any team he signs with.

    The only prediction I will make on Ells is a few more HR'S, a great deal of time on the DL and fans who will give up on him even quicker than our own if it happens.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    So, if the #1 OF gets 20% more than anticipated, and more years than anticipated, how does hurt Choo?  He'll probably get about 20% more than he expected as well.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So, if the #1 OF gets 20% more than anticipated, and more years than anticipated, how does hurt Choo?  He'll probably get about 20% more than he expected as well.

    [/QUOTE]


             You would think so.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rodzits. Show rodzits's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    who cares

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So, if the #1 OF gets 20% more than anticipated, and more years than anticipated, how does hurt Choo?  He'll probably get about 20% more than he expected as well.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think Ells's overblown contract took a lot of teams out of the running for Choo.  Neither should have been paid over 16/17 mil per. in my opinion.  7/8 years made it even crazier with for Ells.  I would be surprised if Choo doesn't take a hit now and ends up taking less in money and/or years.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rodzits. Show rodzits's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So, if the #1 OF gets 20% more than anticipated, and more years than anticipated, how does hurt Choo?  He'll probably get about 20% more than he expected as well.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think Ells's overblown contract took a lot of teams out of the running for Choo.  Neither should have been paid over 16/17 mil per. in my opinion.  7/8 years made it even crazier with for Ells.  I would be surprised if Choo doesn't take a hit now and ends up taking less in money and/or years.

    [/QUOTE]


    try 22 million for Ells

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxDOrtiz. Show RedSoxDOrtiz's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?


    The difference in defense and speed isn't even worth talking about.  Ells doesn't have much natural talent without his speed period.  Choo is an adequate OF and the consistent offensive numbers he puts up, not to mention incredible OBP at the leadoff position with a combination of power and some speed will help any team he signs with.

    The only prediction I will make on Ells is a few more HR'S, a great deal of time on the DL and fans who will give up on him even quicker than our own if it happens.

    [/QUOTE]

    Come on Craze... I know you have an agenda to pump up Choo... but let's be real here dude.  Choo is a below adequate OF.

    Choo  dWAR   Steals   Def (fngraphs)      UZR

    2008, -0.5       4           -6.3                    -1.9

    2009, -0.4       21          -8.7                   -1

    2010, -0.1      22           -0.3                   6.3

    2011,   0         12          -1.7                   2.1

    2012, -1.9       21          -23.6                 -16.7

    2013, -1.8       20          -13.3                 -15.5

     

    Every time you see a little negative sign it means how far under average his defense is... Choo has never had over 22 steals in a season and steals at around the rate that Dustin Pedroia does with a slight nudge to Pedroia for total steals per PA.  I would say that there is a heck of a lot of difference between Pedroia and Ells speed dude.   Ells has had over 50 steals every season he was healthy except for 2011 when he had 39. 

    Ells has a total of 43.7 UZR and 47.9 Def over his career with all positive defensive ratings besides a fluke year in 2009 when he was playing out of position.  Compare that to Choo who has a career  -50.1 Def and  -20.9 UZR so far.  It is like comparing Daniel Nava's defense to Ellsbury, it is that far apart.  It is also like comparing Pedroia's speed to Ellsbury, it's that far apart.  I'm not sure why those aren't worth talking about.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxDOrtiz. Show RedSoxDOrtiz's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to rodzits' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    who cares

    [/QUOTE]

    I care about who the hottie is on your profile... who is the smoke show?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    no way Choo is better than ellsbury in this universe or any other alternate universe. just not possible. Choo could have 60 points on him in OBP and STILL wouldn't be as good as Ellsbury because of the enormous disparity in speed and defense.

     

    sorry to burst your bubble craze. there's more to a baseball player than OBP.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxDOrtiz. Show RedSoxDOrtiz's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to mef429's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    no way Choo is better than ellsbury in this universe or any other alternate universe. just not possible. Choo could have 60 points on him in OBP and STILL wouldn't be as good as Ellsbury because of the enormous disparity in speed and defense.

     

    sorry to burst your bubble craze. there's more to a baseball player than OBP.

    [/QUOTE]


    +1

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So, if the #1 OF gets 20% more than anticipated, and more years than anticipated, how does hurt Choo?  He'll probably get about 20% more than he expected as well.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think Ells's overblown contract took a lot of teams out of the running for Choo.  Neither should have been paid over 16/17 mil per. in my opinion.  7/8 years made it even crazier with for Ells.  I would be surprised if Choo doesn't take a hit now and ends up taking less in money and/or years.

    [/QUOTE]

    You're still not explaining why the market moving up will hurt Choo.

    Suppose both guys were worth $108M/, and Seattle wanted Ells at $108M and TX wanted Choo at $108M/6.  Explain how, if NY decides the real price is more like $154M/7, why would TX then decide to offer only $75M/5 to Choo?

    Say you and your neighbor both owned identical 1965 Mustangs.  You both thought they were worth $10,000.  But a collector buys your neighbor's car for $20k. n Why would you think that would cause your car to decrease in value?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So, if the #1 OF gets 20% more than anticipated, and more years than anticipated, how does hurt Choo?  He'll probably get about 20% more than he expected as well.



    I think Ells's overblown contract took a lot of teams out of the running for Choo.  Neither should have been paid over 16/17 mil per. in my opinion.  7/8 years made it even crazier with for Ells.  I would be surprised if Choo doesn't take a hit now and ends up taking less in money and/or years.

    [/QUOTE]

    You're still not explaining why the market moving up will hurt Choo.

    Suppose both guys were worth $108M/, and Seattle wanted Ells at $108M and TX wanted Choo at $108M/6.  Explain how, if NY decides the real price is more like $154M/7, why would TX then decide to offer only $75M/5 to Choo?

    Say you and your neighbor both owned identical 1965 Mustangs.  You both thought they were worth $10,000.  But a collector buys your neighbor's car for $20k. n Why would you think that would cause your car to decrease in value?

    [/QUOTE]

    It depends on the market for $20K 65 Mustangs. If there is only one neighbor in that market then your car is worth less...if you have to sell it within that market. Is your car still worth $20K if no one will buy it for that price?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    Boras on Choo: 

    ""He's really a player I think is revered," Boras said. 

    Boras wouldn't get into many details, but was asked about teams with money talking about staying within certain budgets. 

    "Budgets are a human design rather than a physical barrier," Boras said. "

    LOL what a shoveler of BS Boras is

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Yankees/Ells contract hurting Choo?

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    He would have been signed by now if it were not for Ells because he was the fall back plan for the Yankees if they didn't sign Ells.  The problem is that the other big spending teams, Dodger and Red Sox are all set with outfields right now.  That leaves the Mariners and the recent spending spree as the most likely location where he lands IMO.

    Ells is a better overall player than Choo and we can't just candy pick his bat.  If batting were everything then Nava would be a better player than Ells... but we all know that's not the case.

    [/QUOTE]

    That's probably true.

     

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